Category: the Rant Board
I’m posting this topic because of what I have noticed for a long time as regarding the boards and posters comments, or replies.
I do a fair amount of online reading, due to researching products, learning about new tech, and such things so that I am able to keep up with my knowledge for professional and entertainment purposes.
I read posting from other people on what they think or products, opinions on things others have said regarding support, and other stuff. I also rate, and grade products performance as related to what I think about them.
In doing this I notice that every one that post is not polite, kind, nice, and disagrees or agrees. I notice they use terms as ignorant, stupid, dumb, and other gyratory terms when expressing their thoughts.
Sometimes terms are not meant to put a person down, but as language or expression.
Sometimes the back and forth can get pretty heated, because people will have their opinions, and sometimes after the heat when someone post something that is not refutable, for example, General Motors, had bad management, others have to see the point, even though they’ve been supporting General Motors.
On the Zone it has been posted that more regulation should be placed on what people can say, because someone feels bullied, disrespected, or gets angry, due to not receiving the feedback they desire.
Why?
If I pose a question what right do I have to expect the feedback to be positive? Why can’t other say exactly what they think no matter how the say it and not be muzzled, because my sensibilities might bet hurt?
It has been said that people only say what they think online, and in of line situations people do not. Why is this thought?
Have you not watched political debates, been to a bar with a bunch of friends and discussed something, and been strongly disagreed with?
Have you not seen protest held in public places disagreeing with policies, laws, books, others opinions?
People print T shirts, signs, posters, fliers, and other materials stating their opinions on things all the time, and others don’t like them, but it is allowed.
Of course people will get angry, and things get heated, and people resort to calling other fatherless children, but is this not human nature?
If we are free to pose a question, write an opinion, make a statement, why do we not want others to be free to respond to what we have written in the fashion they desire?
I sincerely think that if you put your ideas, opinions, and such on a public form such as this you are asking for response, not pampering, sympathy, or a pat on the back. You are asking for others, if they choose, to say what you have posted brings to their minds.
You can not expect control over what others responses are if you do not want control on what you post.
If you are seriously wanting to get a favorable response, seems you should ask yourself, and answer yourself, or only ask others you are 100% sure agree with you. Otherwise, you are going to get human nature.
Your statements generate emotions, anger, sarcasm, kindness, sadness, humor, and a host of other emotions, but you have no right to expect to receive the emotion you desire.
I personally enjoy a speared discussion, debate, or whatever term you wish to apply to it. I learn much, even when I don’t agree.
I personally feel the Zone administration does a wonderful job not dictating, and that is how I’d like it to stay.
As they saying goes, if you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
I couldn't agree more. Everybody really needs to put their big girl panties, or their grown ass man pants, which ever the case may be, on and GTF over themselves.
Great post.
While I'd generally agree with this, I do have a slightly opposing viewpoint to bring up and I think it bears considering.
There are a few boards here that seem to go forward in fairly large part because people there are asking questions and/or asking for help. While I guess you can't take anyone's right to bash the questioners away, I daresay it's disheartening to, say, ask for tips or tricks on spreading butter on bread and be told something harsh like "Just fucking do it already". That's not constructive, and it runs counter enough to the help sought by the original poster that it may be strong enough reason to stop asking for help.
I'm in favour of opinions being free, but I'm also in favour of people being plainly rough for no reason at all either learning some common decency or paying the price for it. If you don't have something constructive to say, then don't say anything. If all you're doing is belittling or tearing someone down, then you aren't being constructive.
Where is it written that I have to be constructive? There are some instances where people need to be told, just shut up and do it. In fact I think there are a lot of instances where people need to be told that on this community.
Ok, post 3, I can see your point. Having worked with all different kinds of people at all different levels of capibility and stages of life, you do raise a valid point. I'm not sure though how sensorship is going to help that though. Some people are just going to be assholes no matter what.
Sl raises a good point too so I don't really know what the answer is. From what I've experienced, usually when someone asks for help with something, there may be a few prickish or harsh responses but for the most part those are balanced out by people with actual answers to the questions.
Yes, there are people that post just for the sake of being rude and it is uncalled for, not constructive.
Cody is right. Sometimes, people need a good swift kick between the back pockets.
I'm not so sure about that. Sometimes a person does need to be told to just go out and try, or go out and do, whatever it is. But sometimes the question or post is framed in such a way that it's clear that the creator is looking for either confidence, tips or both. Being overly rough has a strong likelihood of getting them to tuck their head down and wander off. You might argue that they deserve what they get, or you might argue that, as post 1 said, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. In response, all I'll say is that we all need help sometimes, we're not all hugely confident or capable, and we should feel relatively free to ask for help without being hammered for it.
I'm not actually suggesting that a single offensive statement is ban-worthy. What I'd actually suggest is that the CLs could perhaps keep an eye on things, and if any poster or posters became particularly known for doing little except cut people down, they might be dealt with in some fashion.
Let me be clear. Being direct but helpful is fine, and often necessary. It's the bashing or insulting that doesn't really float the boat here. I'll outline an example to explain the diference.
Poster says: I've never managed to frost a cake properly before. I always get icing everywhere. It's hard to spread without either ruining the cake itself or making the thing look sloppy. Do any of you have any tips?
Constructive but direct poster says: Practice makes perfect. Try waiting until the cake is a bit cooler so it crumbles less easily, then use gentle strokes. You're going to have to just do it and fail a few times before you figure out what works for you. There's no single way to do it right every time, so go figure it out.
Needlessly insulting poster says: Holy god. Just fucking spread the icing and call it good. I can't believe people are asking questions about this. You're ridiculous.
...sorry, but in what circle is attacking a user like that considered okay, and under what circumstances do we, as a community, want to endorse such behavior as indicative of us?
And before anyone says that this sort of thing doesn't happen on the boards...sorry, it does. It's not every day and every time, but it does happen, and it's no good when it does.
Yes, you know what else happens on the boards all the time? A scenario like this:
poster: I'm having trouble icing a cake.
responders: complete and utter silene because no one answers them.
That happens a lot more often, and is equally as constructive as your rude poster. Now, I know how to frost a cake. Should I be punished for not giving my expertise?
Is it better for me to give a long and drawn out description of how to do it, rather than just saying something like. "Why haven't you googled this? I found three how to articles with one google search."
Why does every single answer have to be explanatory?
Why are people so bitter and hateful toards people that want help? They must have nothing better to do than be rude to others and make themselves feel good.
Sheperdwolf, I believe you have good points. Cody, yes, you may ask someone else why he/hee hasn't googled how to frost a cake, and noone is saying that's insulting. But if you say something like the examples sw put out, then you're not being constructive, you're being insulting. (generally speaking, not you) And, maybe someone is expressing not knowing how to frost a cake and seeks help becaush he/she wants to know different ways done by different people, and wants to get as much as the poster can. Now is that bad, or does that give way to insult? Absolutely not! Really, some people post and are rude when doing so, just because they know they can bring others down, and that makes the insulter feel good. One thing is that some are too sensitive, while another is, claiming to be a reasonable, intelligent person and acting contrary, lacking something called manners and respect.
If you don't want to help, or if you want to help by pointing someone to an article or some such, that's fine. Do that if you want, but I'd try and avoid doing it in a way that inherently says "You should know how to do this without me telling you". Sometimes people come to the boards asking for help because they want specific tips from people they may actually know and trust, if not personally then through the medium where they feel at least marginally comfortable. Nothing wrong with that.
Be direct. Be silent. Be constructive. Point out faults, whatever. Just...don't go blasting people and being rude purely because you have an easier time of things. If all you're going to do, generally, is the sort of thing I outlined in a previous post, then you're a detriment to the community on those grounds.
Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I meant is that someone like Cody, could ask that without insulting. And insulting back is just as even as the first insulter.
Cody is what they call a troll, looking for an argument. He doesn't want to actually contribute.
I also notice a difference between these two statements:
Statement 1: There are plenty of articles and websites and other ways to find out information on this. Have you checked any of those out? And if you have, what are you still having trouble with?
Statement 2: Why haven't you just googled this? It's not hard. In fact, you expend more effort typing out a topic here than you would by googling the answers. You could be doing instead of asking already.
The first is constructive, direct and not unkind. The second is needlessly abrasive. The second rather clearly says, "Don't waste our time unless you've done everything you possibly can to help yourself". More, it also seems to carry with it a whole load of negativity that most sensitive people will both pick up on and shy from.
There's a lot to be said for saying things in different ways. We needn't coddle everyone all the time, and sometimes a swift kick in the pants is more help than harm. Sometimes, however, I think people would do well to stop and think for a moment, ponder the value of how they're saying what they're saying and how it'll relate to the ease with which it's received. If you use a method like statement 2 outlined above, you may be able to justify yourself, but if your target did not in fact use all of their availabee resources yet, or was nervous about asking for any kind of help in the first place, then you might well have failed, and all justification collapses. "Hey, I helped them. I told them about Google" doesn't wash if what you really did was make them feel bad about not having done something right.
This is all kind of getting beside the point. Pretty much anything should remain unmuzzled, as it were, except the blatant trolling and attacking.
This is a forum on the internet where people express their thoughts and opinions in a gamut of manners. Please point me to some documentation or source where it says that this is a place to seek helpful advice and constructive criticism only. You won't find it because that's not what this is. Really, people just need to grow up and deal with the fact that everyone does not express themselves passively and politely, and everyone will not speak to you the way you want to be addressed. This is not a place of business, some lovey-dovey support group, or a family friendly institution. Some people are kind, nice, and encouraging, and others are in your face, down your throat, and up your ass. When we debate we get offended, defensive, personal, and nasty. It's what makes this place appealing, exciting, and entertaining. In the real world, people are the same way, except a lot of times, people just give you an insulting or dirty look. But there are no emoticons that I know of that stand for: "You're a dumb ass," or "Are you shitting me right now?" or "Just shut the fuck up." So we use our words, and sometimes, it hurts. Suck it up. People have been treating one another like this since their days as wee children on the playground, and it doesn't change. The whining cry babies are worse than the people who are being so-called rude and insulting because the whining cry babies just throw insults back, or spout about how they're not going to read or post to this thread, or how their feelings have been hurt, so the heartless people should not post to the thread. Off topic! And also a waste of time and space.
No, that is not how the world works. You either ignore people or tolerate the things that they say. When you put a question, comment, or story out on a forum, you should expect a myriad of responses. There are a bunch of people reading your posts, and they are all judging you differently. If they feel compelled to respond, they will, and they bring their sincerest of thoughts to the table. Sometimes it's kind and gentle, sometimes it's harsh and insensitive. But so what? No one is required to be respectful, sensible, or sensitive to your emotions.
Forums are a pit of people that hide behind computer screens and say stupid things they would never say to a real person's face to make themselves feel all big and mighty.
If the CL’s keep an eye on how something is said that is dictating, because it is the persons opinion on how something should be said.
A helpful post sometimes gets a negative response.
Example.
Hi, I need help. I am trying to learn how to use a fork to eat beans. I keep dropping them, and just can’t seem to do it.
Response, Why not just use a spoon, and place one finger on the edge if you have trouble locating your food. That way you can scoop the beans up, and eat them easier.
Response, you don’t understand, I’ll look stupid, and get talked about. Your stupid and you don’t know how things are for me. That I’ll look dumb doing that.
You see this is all objective. Brows the boards and you’ll see lots of examples of people giving their opinion in a helpful manner and getting rebuffed when all they wanted to do was help.
This also is how the world works. You bend over backwards to make someone feel better, and all you get back is, what are you doing, trying to insult me?
It is the posters place to use what they can, reject the stuff they feel is not helpful, but not a CL’s job to referee.
Ok, it goes for both the poster and the person who tries to help... But, who says it all has to be full of insulting comments? Or where, or what document states that? Who also says it all has to be sweet, nice and nice? Noone. All that is being said, is that you can't get even with someone. If the person who said "you're stupid, you don't understand me" is being impolite, it doesn't mean the rather "smart" has to say: Oh you fucking moron, then why did you post? Do it yourself and don't ask!" I think it all is reflected on how well educated one is.
@Forereel, very nice point.
What a lovely picture of the human race you're painting.
I reiterate the point I made earlier: if you don't have something productive or nice to say, then strongly consider why you're wasting your valuable time. Does belittling someone you've never met, will never see and who has come asking for help empower you somehow? God, I hope not. And if it doesn't empower you, and we've previously established that it sure as hell doesn't help them, then what other possible good can it cause? "I felt like it" doesn't work in public places, and it doesn't work with petty crime, so why should it be permissible and encourageable in forum-based interaction?
On the point made concerning those who respond badly to well-meant criticism, I'll say this much. It sucks whenever that happens, but it doesn't give you the right or the need to turn bitter, judgmental or rough just because you were poorly handled. If everyone acted that way, we'd all degenerate pretty quickly. For those nihilistic folk among you, perhaps this is what you want; just remember that it's what you wanted when the world starts going to hell in earnest.
I'm not saying you have to be lovey-dovey. I'm not even saying you've got to agree or step really carefully. But for pete's sake have a little ccomon decency, at least concerning the people who are honestly out here asking for help. Everyone, no matter who they are, feels they could use advice or aid at times, and I can't think of anyone I've ever known who would appreciate particularly harsh treatment at such a time. If you feel that the only thing you can bear to say would bualify, as previously demonstrated, as unhelpful, then how about doing just about everyone a favour and exercising a little restraint?
Overall, this is proving to me an interesting point. Muzzling would suck, but it's only being discussed because there are some people who don't seem to have the moral compass which would spare the rest of us the necessity of even talking about it.
I could say I agree with being nice to people, but sometimes even that fails.
If we lived in an ideal world good advice would be taken as such, bad advice excepted with respect, due to the person taking their time to try, and rudemess ignored.
All the above is not the cvase.
Sense we live in the world, and this site is part of it, it should be conducted as such.
You can't teach the rude to be nice, and you can't teach the sensitive to be tough. Life does these things, or doesn't, but it is how things stand.
It is far better to learn from reality, because when you are sheltered it is a rude awakening to face.
Ok shepherd wolf, I have one question for you. What is nice?
If I answer your cake question by saying the two word phrase, "Google it", you may think I'm being rude. I'm just blowing you off. I'm saying to do it on you're own. But maybe I'm just in a hurry, I have to get to class, but I want to help you, and happen to know that if you googgle it you'll get great articles on how to do it, so I give you a fast and pointed answer. I didn't mean it rudely, but you took it badly. Who is in the wrong?
Perfect example. AFLCIO girl person insulted me up there by saying I'm a troll. She did, go look, I promise its there. Now, I could take that as her being rude, and get really upset about it, and go to the CL's saying that she slandered me and no one will ever read my posts again because she called me a troll, then start listening to bullet for my valentine and cutting. (that's a joke, don't get upset) However, that's not what I'm doing. I read her post, remembered back to other posts I've read of hers, remembered that she's a moron who wouldn't know reality from her left elbow, and moved on to write this response for you.
So in a world where what is meant nicely is taken as rudeness, and what is rudeness is often simply miscategorized because of oversensitivity to it, how am I supposed to know what you expect? If you put up a board post about caking icing procedures, please tell me how in the world I'm supposed to know what type of response you would best like to receive? And to carry that a step farther, since I can't then know what would be constructive for you, I can't respond at all. Because remember, you said that if I don't have anything constructive, I should say nothing. So I say nothing, and everyone else says nothing because no one can know what kind of answer you want or would best be served by, and your question never gets answered. Then, you're left googling it anyway, which would have been the answer I gave to you in the first place.
On the other hand, you could simply pull up your panties, read through the responses, come to a negative one, and skip to the next link. Seriously, if you're using a screen reader, its the click of one button to go to the next link. It is not that frickin difficult. If you don't want the negative comments to affect you, skip them. Why does this not sink in to anyone's head?
Because people feed off of negativity. They enjoy reading the bashings because it fires them up. The negative comments give people something to complain about, create entire threads about, and bitch about in qn's.
Yes.
I guess this is pretty self-evident to me, but adults judge for themselves what comments they find to be rude and what not. Then they ignore the least constructive, or what they deem to be the least constructive, and read those they find helpful or agreeable. But that's all a matter of one's own subjective judgment, not something that can be put into some objective box or other. Frankly, I like a spirited debate, but the more disagreeable I find someone or something, the more I choose to avoid them. And notice that I did say choose. I'm afraid I have to go with those who don't want censorship here.
Cody, I can hardly respond to your last post because I feel as if you've missed the point.
First of all, "google it" is abrupt but not horribly rude, and sure as hell not the sort of thing I'd want anyone censored for. That would be horrible.
Second: willful belligerence or insulting is what I'm talking about here, which should be perfectly clear. Sure it's legal. Sure it's permissible. But is it ideal? Should it be permitted when it serves no purpose and can only do harm?
Third and last for now - and this sort of circles back to the first point in a way - being constructive need not mean being verbose. Some people mayn't think to google something before posting for help, but if you say "google it" a light goes on, they go look things up and bingo! problem solved. In such an instance, abrupt works out, and was constructive. Being abrasive is never constructive, so what I was essentially saying is to attempt to muzzle yourself if you don't want others to consider muzzling you. Too few people show self-restraint.
I hope that puts paid to what you were driving at. If it doesn't, I may just have to throw in the towel and concede that we are never going to agree on this. Some people feel it's all right to be harsh to excess; some of us feel that while some circumstances may require it, most do not.
Cody you just exactly proved my point that you are a troll. Calling me an idiot just because you don't agree with me. That's pretty mature, wow.
But SW, some people are just abrasive without meaning to be. Some people are blunt and to the point and that hurts people's feelings. Is that their fault? You want people to fit into your standards of what rude and not rude are, but you're using completely arbitrary terms to define it. That's why when things are sensored they are sensored for their message or words used, not for the style of writing.
No, Cody. You'll note how deliberate I was in earlier posts to delineate the difference between rude and not rude.
I can't say I know anyone personally who, if they asked for advice on how to spread icing on a cake, would think "Holy fuck, just do it! What's the matter with you?" was a polite or appropriate response. I would argue that the grand majority of people know that this response, whether gotten or given, is not really suitable to the question posed. Adulthood, and even growing up in general, is meant to teach us the appropriate judgment and use of social etiquette. Of course there are blurry lines, and blurry lines aren't to be muzzled because you absolutely can't take sides. I did say that something that's little more than someone being abrupt or a trifle sharp would just have to slide; you can't please everyone, whether it be the trolls who want to blast away at anything they see or the people whose skin is so thin as to be essentially transparent. What you can do, however, is nip the utterly needless antagonism in the bud. This, I think, is why I feel as if you've been missing my point. It seems that you feel I am in favour of censorship for much broader topics than I actually am; in truth, I think only the more extreme forms of rudeness even merits a second look, and even some of that could arguably be stopped if the target did things differently.
To sum up the best I can here:
Abruptness is fine A little sharpness sometimes can't be helped or can be smoothed over. But out-and-out rudeness, of the sort I've made reference to multiple times, is what I have a beef with, and that sort of thing either needs to stop - and it won't on its own, not with this site's current clientele - or at least needs a good look now and again. It might not hurt to have certain members, who may be known for pointless antagonism, trolling or other such bullying behavior, to have their board or public speech access restricted to get them to cool off and consider what they're doing.
To the last post, you're guilty of doing similar on these boards, so please kindly refrain from being the pot calling the kettle black.
Hmm, In general I agree with the original poster. On the topic of asking for help, I feel really mixed, because I know a lot of people who would rather ask for help with something than take the initiative to read the fucking manual and get it done. or RTFM...
Some people get offended particularly on here and twitter when I say something like "here is a link to the manual. Rather than wasting my time by writing up an explanation that could potentially lack information, I encourage you to read this, search google, and then ask us if you need help then. Once you've got a basic understanding of the topic, you'll be able to ask more effective questions and save us all some time.
I don't mind helping those who need a little help from time to time, but I will gladly kick someone down who is to lazy/expects everything on a silver platter. Lacking confidence is one thing, but you can't deny there are a lot of lazy people that post these topics who don't wish to research.
Both sides have points here. Shepherdwolf and others are right that there is often no need for the nasty, insulting, and otherwise destructive posts and talk that goes on around here. It is also true that often people will say things online that they would not say to someone's face, or say it in ways they would not say to someone's face. I get it, both those things suck. I'm not in favor of people being assholes when there's no need.
But the bottom line remains. It's not the job of the admins or community leaders to make sure everyone is nice, polite, and constructive to each other. That would be impossible to enforce. Even if it were though, it should not be. Say what you will about the Zone, but Sapphire is right, that's what keeps it interesting around here. And if you feel someone is consistently being an ass, ignore them on here. Then you don't have to see their destructive board posts. Should they be more polite? Maybe. But no one can or should make them, so use the feature that exists to block it out.
This thread has also gotten off topic with the whole asking help scenario. I agree that someone asking advice should be given constructive answers. On the flipside though, if they're going to ask it in an online forum, they need to be prepared for responses from all sides of the spectrum. If you want only helpful and constructive answers, then ask those you know will be helpful and constructive.
In summary, Shepherdwolf and others have points, but in the end I'd say Wayne and Sapphire and those on that side of the equasion are right. Grow up, and be realistic.
I agree with the above post and raze one more question
if you never encourage people to research, question, or think for themselves, where will they go for answers? Oh, that's right, they'll always come back to you... which is good for your ego or your job, if you're doing tech support, but apart from that really doesn't do much but keep them from being able to function themselves.
There are many many other online communities with both the rules to somewhat govern interactivity and the staff to enforce them. These sites and forums tend to actually deal with problems instead of deferring them to the user. There are pros and cons to that approach, of course, but it is done all too often, and happens to be successful more than not. I'm not sure I agree with the "we do it this way, so deal with it" philosophy where it attempts yet again to defer a real, if sporadic, problem faced. If we are attempting to argue that one of the reasons for the Zone's continued "interest" is its propensity for drama or its open season on the weak, the unprepared or the undeserving, it says many an unflattering thing about the site as a whole and its reasons for continuing to exist. I guess it makes me a woefully romantic soul to think that the people who do frequent this place actually come for the friendship, the laughs, the sharing of information and help, and the other assortment of good things such a site ought to be offering. I know that's why -I'm here, but you'll notice that my post count is far less than many, my appearances are hardly predictable and, until very recently, my voice has been rather quiet on most issues.
I'm not saying that CLs should suddenly become hyper-aware of everything said, and essentially begin running a babysitting service for adults who can't be bothered governing themselves socially. I'm saying only that in more extreme cases, there might be users who, given the repeated nature of their offenses, might be investigated as far as their right to remain on the site are concerned. In real life, if you get too rowdy in a bar, you can be tossed out. Also in real life, you wouldn't swear at just anyone if they asked you for help. The lack of enforced rules here has, in my estimation at least, given people to a feeling of false entitlement, at least as far as this site is concerned; it's hard to say that we're emulating rrel life, and that targets should just grow up and deal, when bullies are never checked and often sided with, and when those in any sort of marginal position of authority shrug helplessly and cry powerlessness. The Zone is not a simulation of real-life socialization in most cases, much as many of you would have me believe otherwise.
That's me done though. I've said all I meant to, and in this post especially I'm trying to stick at least passingly close to the original poster. No, muzzling is not a good thing in general, but for someone who does little more than antagonize, it might be an excellent way to minimize future trouble related to that user and their potential.
I'd tend to agree with the last poster. All we can do is offer constructive advice and help and hope that will make up for nasty discourtesy. I wouldn't -quite claim that trolls keep things entertaining, but freedom of speech is the key here.
I also agree. If i were to come here as a sighted person not knowing anything about the blind community, I would assume they are a bunch of hateful, bitter negative people from the posts here.
I am not really a sensorship guy but on this site it does seem people have a bad attitude towards others using the site tools like Ignore. I've been blocked on Facebook by a young school-skippin' fool who bragged about skipping on Facebook, and I told her to get her ass to class. And though I've been blocked, I'm not dead yet lol.
Ok as to the ask for help vs. Google thing, I am of 2 minds here:
First, it's good to do your research, yes this is true. But many of you may not know that social networks have actually outranked Google as places from which people glean information. When you stop and think about it, it makes sense: you ask people who you trust, and that you know actually know something about the subject, and may even understand your perspective. Better would be a link to an article that you know describes the topic well. And this site may be the sort of place where one could, for instance, find answers to any pitfalls on icing a cake, which have to do with not having sight.
I know I've asked about products on here, because so-called blindness products have attrocious review systems, it's not like Amazon where I could read a ton of reviews on a particular product.
So anyway, there are valid reasons why many millions of social networking users use the social networks, and forums like this one, to ask for help from communities they either know, or believe have something in common which is relevant to the discussion.
Just my thoughts.
I have spoken about this on other posts so I'm not going to add much to this one except to say, I don't know why it's so hard for some people to understand the difference between having an opposing opinion and putting someone down and belittling them with words like "you're an idiot" "you're a baby", this list goes on. There should be no need for putting others down just because you strongly disagreed with something they said.
I'm all for debating with others, I'm not always right about things and I'll quite happily stand corrected if I'm wrong, but I will *not* be bullied and belittled and cursed at; And if people are going to stoop that low because they can't argue their point inteligently, then, you won't get a comment from me. It's called "mutual respect".
First of all, respect is earned.
Secondly, people get passionate during debates. This involves calling other people names and putting them down because, truth be told, a proponent of a certain belief often feels that the opposing side is stupid, not sensible, and idiotic. Personal attacks don't constitute arguments. But I feel that those who are labeled as trolls, bashers, rude, or whatever, bring more to the table and are arguing their points intelligently. Perhaps the insulting phrases cloud other people's judgment, but that does not mean that all these people do is harshly insult and undermine others.
Also, i think that the people who support the whole censoring issue are less innocent and well-mannered than they claim to be. You contribute to the bitterness and nastiness, and so you lump yourselves with the very people you are attacking. You get bitter when people disagree with your viewpoint, and just because someone doesn't say something the way you think it should be said, you are quickly offended. What is astounding is that people will get so offended that, rather than privately contacting a person, ignoring them, or putting their sensitivity aside, they sidetrack a whole debate because someone said that they were stupid. That is no more mature than the insulting phrases you deem unnecessary.
What I have a difficult time with are people who see any disagreement of any kind as a hostile act. No, when I say I think you're wrong, what I'm really saying is I think you're wrong. I am not saying that you and your family and everyone who looks like you should commit suicide for daring to not agree with me. You get it, I say what I mean and there is no hidden message underneath it. Unfortunately I can't control how others act. If I don't like what someone says or how it is said I'll gladly use the ignore feature.
And that brings me to this. The other thing I do not understand is people who complain about being ignored or blocked or unfriended or unfollowed. Doesn't just happen here, it happens on Twitter and other places. Do people really expect everyone to like them just for breathing? Look, I know the sort of person I am is not to everyone's liking, so anyone who wants to can block or unfollow or unfriend. I might be puzzled and on a rare occasion I might find the person and ask why but that's not going to happen often. If you find me boring or stupid or annoying or whatever, please, feel free to leave me alone, and thanks for calling. LOL!
Addressing Sword of Sapphires here:
Generalizations are bad. Ironic statement.
Seriously though. Please don't try and justify poor behavior by saying "everyone does it". That explains it, but does not excuse it, and as stated above, there are plenty of venues - most, in fact - that will call a halt to it if things get too nasty. The real world in many instances does this very thing, so the Zone is not necessarily an indication of the real world on these terms.
I don't yet see anyone who's truly pro-censorship. I know that the worst I've said is that trolls, the more serious and unrelenting kind, could do with being checked a bit, and while I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, I'm hardly bitter when they do not. Truth be told, I care about your point of view only insofar as it pertains to whatever's being discussed; I don't know most of the people here well enough to be bothered by what they say and, furthermore, I have the know-how to make the distinction between personal attack and disagreement.
And this brings me to you, Godzilla. I completely agree with you. "I think you're wrong" is the sort of thing which, if you're taking offense to it, probably means you're not too well-equipped to be putting yourself up for scrutiny in the first place. We can't protect those people, but we can perhaps nip some of the trolling or, even if official measures aren't put in place, we can sort of make a collective effort, as a community, to isolate the needless behavior and try to get the offenders to stop. They probably won't, but at least then it can't be said that no one tried or didn't give a damn.
Please pardon me, as it's very early in the morning and I fear I'm making less sense than usual.
Leo, I agree with you to a point, because for those nitch areas I see where things would be helpful, you could find real results and info,but I still believe assisting those with no drive to do their own research on topics they're clearly capable of researching/finding a preliminary opinion on does damage to our community... Because we are giving them an excuse not to learn how to fish, when its all being provided for them, cooked, cut and on a silver platter. Encouraging people to get out there and think/act for themselves in the end is much more productive than keeping them restrained in their little bubble. Sometimes this requires a kick between the back sides of the pants... While regrettable, it still does more good to the person, and the community in the long run. I attempt to be encouraging with those I see are actually trying, but the lazy are fare game, IMO.
If you're one of those people who refuses to read a manual because you can just ask someone how to do everything on twitter, yes I'll take issue with this eventually.
But, if you've read the manual, given it a shot, or done your research but still have questions before jumping in, I'll gladly help.
though for some reason, people are seriously against reading documentation, in any form. which doesn't make sense to me, because the documentation provides the answers in a more concise format than we normally could, and takes in to account all the products features while doing so.
Some, though not all have no regard for others time. If I can tell someone is one of these people, my reasons to help them vanish in a heart beat.
All this aside, I actually do enjoy helping people. I just value my time, and don't want to waste it on the ungrateful, unless i'm doing a job where my job is to help people... Because then I know what i'm in for. I can put myself in a productive mindset and slowly help people learn how to help themselves.
I agree with the two posts above mine completely. Often times, those bemoaning their treatment on here create more ""drama"" than the person who refused to cater to them in their nice warm bubble ever could have. There are even 1 or two posters on this topic who have jumped on the mistreatment band wagon, who lack the fortitude of character to admit that they've played both sides of this fence, and as such really shouldn't be commenting or complaining of abuse. I find these peoples actions vaguely insulting not because they've done me any harm, but because they're cowardly enough to jump aboard the victim train, when in the past they've put their metal to the test, and come up way short. Rather than apologize, people seriously believe that if they just ignore what they don't want to here, it will go away, stop, change... Even as they continue proving why they have the reputation they have. I have no sympathy, remorse, or empathy for this brand of utterly contemptible idiot. Not only do they contribute nothing positive to the community, but they brazenly stand as a wolf in sheep's clothing, complaining all the sheep mistrust them.
I meant posts 40 and 41.
All I can say is, if we want to be equals be equals. So since it's ok for me to contact people on Facebook who are real gardeners, when attempting to build a indoor herb situation for the daughter, then it's ok for people to contact experts on here or make a public forum post on here also. The give a man a fish / teach a man to fish / our community this and that arguments are as irrelevant as the easily-offended. After all, all I've ever wanted was to be treated equally, judged on the same merits, etc. What's rather disturbing is that if you come on a site like this, people automatically attribute behaviors or processing to something wrong with blind people, or our community, or what have you, when in fact this is very normal.
I know many, for instance, who really don't try and navigate the maze of technical forums out there to solve their own problem, because they do something else for a living and honestly don't know enough to tell what post is technically accurate or not. And so many of us on Facebook who are software developers or IT people for a living will lend a helping hand rather than complain that they are doing it because they are a woman and women are underrepresented in the sciences, or because they're black and blacks are underrepresented in science and technology. And can you imagine how ridiculous that would sound if we did?
And yet this is what happens here.
And if your only reason to not help someone in that situation is because of some ideological persuasion about a so-called target group or community, you are sacrificing that person's need for assistance for the benefit of your religion. Because that is what it is: a religion, replete with dogma and leaders and even a god of some sort, complete with tenants for how the 'community' (cult members) should respond to things, regardless of how normal their former responses were.
Shepherdwolf, I never said anything along the lines of everyone does it. I simply said that during a heated debate, some people do resort to name-calling and bashing. I am neither trying to excuse nor explain the behavior. The point I'm getting at is that some people choose to express themselves this way, so ignore them, or put your petty emotions on the back burner. The debate is about a certain issue, not the person/people who feels they were attacked. When people spout off about being attacked or insulted, they're posts are just as unnecessary as the insulting and undermining posts. These whiners are not contributing anything positive or progressive to the discussion. You're not going to be able to stop the people who assert themselves aggressively. You cannot force everyone to communicate the way you do, or in the ways you believe are best. A lot of times, people think others are being rude and insulting when a person isn't trying to be. And even when a person disregards the feelings of another, there are better responses than crying about it for all to see.
A couple points. First, to the person who talked about mutual respect, what if I don't respect you? I don't give you automatic respect simply because you draw breath. If we were having a discussion about colds and you told someone to slash their arm open and balance their humors, I'd call you the idiot you are. I have no respect for idiocy, nor idiots, and I have no qualms about pointing it out when it is displayed.
Second, I would just like to point out this little overlooked fact. the word troll, is an insult. So to say you think that trolls should be stopped because they are insulting, is insulting. So you're insulting those who are insulting. Its really just insulting.
The only point I wonder about is why the Zone is not seen as the real world?
I have pointed out that I personally use other media other then the Zone, and I see exactly the same things happening.
The topics are sometimes different, but the content is not.
Ok, leo, I suppose i'm being a bit harsh on the subject of giving help. I guess i've just become really frustrated with those who won't attempt to figure things out, when they've got the background, documentation or ability to learn the simple things needed to understand what they're trying to do. I was never thinking about this in relation to more complex subjects that require extensive knowledge or training.
I, as can be seen will help anyone. I don't really care if they are lazy or not. Ask a question, and if I can answer it you'll get it answered.
If I start deciding people can research, read, and understand the manual, and such things it gets to complicated
Some things, or manuals aren't laid out for blind people to understand, so posting your help answer in terms of how to get to a place seem best to me.
I say that the Zone is not a true emulation of the real world because, to put it baldly, the protections users -do have are not the same as they would be in real life and, dare I say it, are even less than you see on most, if not all, other forums. In the real world, and in many other online media, you aren't just going to be told to ignore the person who needlessly insults you; sometimes you will, but oftentimes there will be someone to help...whether that's a forum moderator who applies a temporary mute or ban to the offender, a policeman or other official in real life who breaks up a physical fight when he sees it. This is not to say that there's no injustice in the world; far from it, in fact. But in my view, the Zone is a bit strange when put next to real life for one main reason: with a lack of accountability comes a loosening of one's inhibitions against bad social behavior, and for some, this temptation is simply too great to resist.
Yes, it's lovely to be able to say what you want. But is it so lovely if someone who meant no harm said or did something a little silly and then got torn apart for it? Is it so lovely when you realize that, in some boards and topics at least, the general attitude is (however unspoken), "We're jerks, and we self-justify. Deal with it or get out."? I'm sorry, but that's neither indicative of real life nor sterling standard to hold as a community.
Not everyone's going to play nice. Not everyone's going to agree. But for pity's sake recognize the difference between an open insult and a strong disagreement - there is a distinction, every time - and remember that just because you won't be punished for it doesn't make it okay. The lack of boundaries lends itself to a lawlessness of sorts which is not so strongly mimicked in the rest of the world at large. That is my point.
The problem with a forum moderator is he or she makes judgements according to his or her beliefs.
Most of these sites have an agenda, religion, non religion, and such other things, but they have them.
Notice how popular Facebook and other free flow sites are. If it isn't illegal it is not muzzled.
That to me is how the world works.
In the places that strive to make freedom actually freedom people want to live.
A moderator can make such decisions, yes, and I would be lying if I said it didn't happen often enough to validate your argument. Thing is, you're right. It does happen. However, what I think happens more is that the terms of service for whatever method of communication is involved gets violated, and a moderator, instead of using their own prejudices, has to act based on an agreement everyone decided to abide by when they signed up. The difference between the Zone and most other sites is that 1. their ToS is not as tight and 2. insofar as harassment of members is concerned, it takes a relaxed do-it-yourself approach. This is at least partially enabled by the ignore feature, though given the amount of flak someone can get for using said feature it's kind of a lose-lose scenario sometimes.
Also, I don't believe Facebook and the like is popular because you are free to remain unmoderated, as it were. I would say it's popular because of the services it offers and because of how bloody pervasive it's designed to be, so I'm not sure about that part of your reasoning. In a nutshell, I'll agree that sometimes moderators have personal agendas, but I don't reall agree that the "free" sites - those which pretty much let users govern themselves - are popular for this reason, or indicative of real life thereby. I'm content to disagree with you on this though; we're all entitled to our own opinion after all.
Yes indeed, and that is exactly my point. I like the fact you can disagree in any manner you want. How I receive it is up to me.
I'll give an example. A user, and don't get me wrong, she's a sweetie in my opinion, decided to attack us.
"fake As Fuck."
That post was a direct attack, but I can think about it right now and start to laugh. Damn, it just was my cup of tea.
So you see, if you read it you'll see some got mad, other laughed, some probably ignored her even in the next life, and well, you get my point. Reaction to people is varied.
Now, as far as Facebook. Some people believe you shouldn't be able to post expression of your life, but people post totally nude pictures.
Now, lets say you except one of them as your friend. You now have access to their private pictures. Soon as you see they posted one of them naked, you get upset, and write Facebook a letter about how imoral it is and how that person should be stricken from the site. People are excepting this person and they aren't aware they've got to look at her naked body.
Why not just unfriend her, forget about it, and friend the people that agree with you?
Nope, people want to bitch.
You've got whole articles, news reports, probably books about how Facebook is going to take society straight to hell. Smile.
I didn't have time to read all of these posts, but here's what I have to say before I go. The bullies/trolls/whatever won't ever go away. They want a reaction out of you. However they can't control you or how you respond. That's on you. So your best bet is to keep your mouth shut, or in this case, don't write anything back. Same goes for the cry babies who get upset at the simplest of things. They want your attention and pity. Best thing to do is just ignore them and eventually they will find something else to do when they realize you won't feed in to that crap. We are all different. This is a diverse community in many senses, and I'm not just talking about races and religions. We have every sort of personality.
About time!
If you have the right to ask you should have the right to tell. If you ask a stupid question then your going to get a stupid answer.
Its good to keep in mind your opinion is not going to be the same as other peoples and they are entitled to that.
(off topic)
I wonder why ProudAFL-CIOLaborUnionGirl's account is disabled? What did she say that was so out of line? I haven't read all her board posts to be fair but if it's anything to do with this one; what's she said that others haven't? wow!
She was banned for having multiple accounts. She is still free to use her original account if she wishes.
Oh and Cody, I know what you're saying; maybe I picked the wrong words; what I meant is, no-one is better than anyone else just because they may have a differing opinion to yours and make themselves feel better by putting others down.
I know I've said this before, but I don't agree in you or anyone else calling others an idiot just because they may not agree with how one is handling a situation. (I've not seen you call anyone an idiot btw).
But, allow me to use an above post of yours as an example here; You referred to the fact that Union girl was a "moron" and I can only assume that is because you disagree with the majority of posts she's made, but why would you call ehr a moreon just because you don't like her posts and you may have the opinion that she's different, or whatever you think/ Lol
Also you talk about different standards people have regarding rudeness and I do get what you're saying, but it goes both ways does it not? Like there are differing standards when it comes down to how an individual might take something that someone has said; eg, you might think you're perfectly harmless, whereas the person might not; so again, I should think it goes both ways.
Wow Anthony, I didn't realize she had multiple accounts; totally fair enough then considering of course it's in the TOS.
Oh yes, it goes both ways, which is why its entirely superfluous. If you can't pin down exactly what it is, define it, give it a structure, then there's no point in dealing with it. I'm never going to convince you to debate in my styel, and you're never going to get me to debate in yours, so lets get past that, put on our big boy panties and have a discussion. (feel free to put on big girl panties for all those to whom that applies)
And, just for the sake of record keeping, no, I don't think union girl is an idiot because of her posts. I think she's an idiot because of her lack of connection with reality and her mind-boggling amount of naivete. And yes, I have called many people idiots in board posts, and several other names, all of them richly deserved in my opinion.
*puts on big boy panties ! Can I wear briefs or boxers please? Panties just don't seem mocho.
No, panties, just make sure you're bikini safe first. Ain't no one wanna see that.
Damn! Discussioning is hard!
just wow. lol
Lol yeh exactly; you were all told to put on your big boy panties; not sure why? but whatever.
Cody, If you're suttly trying to say I had a go at you, I didn't; I am debating like an adult with you as I have no trouble doing if you show me some respect; same goes for anyone.
I'm curious about something. If he hasn't shown you that he will give you respect, and he says on some occasions that he will not respect certain ideas, why do you interpret that as a personal attack? Also, after those multiple occasions, why bother asking him to be nicer when it seems clear that he does not plan to change his style of debating? I've never met him in person so I can't say what he's like, but if that's how he is in person there's nothing you can do to change him, or say. Don't waste your energy on something you can't change.
I'm not speaking for the recipient of your question, but will say right here and now that if I feel that I am undeserving of disrespect, I will consider said disrespect a personal affront, at llast to some extent. I probably won't howl about it, but it's how I'll think. This doesn't mean I expect to be liked or accepted right away...far from it. It does, however, mean that I tend to have a dim view of people who feel that even the basics of respect, which are in part indicated by the discarding of name-slinging and casual insults to denote superiority or arrogance, should be hard-won. To my way of seeing it, if I don't know you, I still respect you at least a little until such time that you ruin it. Perhaps that's why it's personal, or seems personal, I'm just kinda throwing that out there. Some people, when faced with a person who feels that respect absolutely must be earned, and who feels that lack of respect can be denoted very casually by dismissive or downright belittling speech, will take offense to it and see it as unearned antagonism.
You're right; some people never change; I have given up; I will keep my distance and stop responding because I try to answer his questions but he still doesn't get it. He's just an attention seeker as far as I and other people are concerned so I'm not going to waste my time, energy and emotion on the kid any more.
I did try.
I come here to have fun and relax, not to be attacked all the time for having my view.
And Ryan, I questioned him in my last post for talking about big boy panties; I have no idea what he meant there.
He can disrespect me as much as he wants; I did the same for him long ago when he treats everyone like idiots because he doesn't agree with someone. (his own words).
Very very sad if you ask me; His only friends in the end, I dare say, will be people who like going around being as evil as him; some are also on this site.
Oh whatever, I know you like panties Wayne! Lol!
I don't usually get in to these things, but I personally didn't read any attack in Cody's posts. Putting on the big girl panties is basically saying to get a bit of a thicker skin. Lastly, calling someone an attention seaking kid and calling someone an idiot amounts to roughly the same thing, no? You don't feel that he understand your point, so you call him that? If you said it with action by not responding, or said that you'd agree to disagree, I'd understand that. You've scolded him for belittling people, and then called him an attention seaking kid though. At least take a moment to stop and consider how you've handled it. We're all human. We learn something new every day. We've all spoken out of anger, so I do understand that side of it as well.
I agree with Anthony here... On one hand, I understand that you are probably writing what you did out of anger, but on the other hand, this really is a pot calling the kettle black situation... You wouldn't tolerate insults like that from cody, and in the past have railed quite hard against how he's dealt with you, but when push comes to shove you're not really providing him the example you profess to live by. this being the case, Why should he take you seriously? By lashing out, you've just undone all your work. You can't try and morally objectify this now, because you've burned your soapbox... I've seen you do this on other boards, when things haven't went your way. So, I really do understand why Cody doesn't take you seriously in the slightest.
Not that I one hundred percent agree with cody, but I honestly feel you really don't have an argument left to you at this stage.
I kind of disagree, honestly. To put it shortly, why else does one throw insults? Insults garner attention, either from the target or from those watching. It's a simple fact. Whether that was the intention, or the only possible option, is kind of irrelevant. They do garner attention. Thus, if Cody indulges in insult-slinging, freely admits to it as well, then he's technically seeking attention. Being a kid, as well, may refer to nothing more than the age difference. I'd not condemn so quickly, though I agree that there's a lot to be said for shooting yourself in the foot by saying things in anger.
I'm with Anthony and Stormwing on this one; as much as I dislike the concept of insulting those who dare to disagree with you, slinging return insults is no better.
Letme clarify just a bit. I'm not quite in agreement with Anthony and Stormwing, nor in agreement with Rachel either. Both sides have points. I do think it might have been in poor taste, but not necessarily because I think the response was inherently insulting. It felt more like observation than insult, but then I wasn't its target, which leads me to the poor-taste thing. Sometimes it's when you say it, not just what you said. In any case, I'll definitely agree there may have been better ways to handle this.
On a slight tangent, I have no idea why but I've never liked that expression, the "pull up your big-girl panties" thing or whatnot. It's always felt vaguely condescending and a little crass. Sometimes crass has its place, but...well, I digress.
Point is, I think this thing has wandered a bit far afield. Best advice I can give ya, Rachel, is that if you find Cody intolerable, just shrug him off, you needn't get off a parting shot because he probably doesn't care. All a parting shot's going to do is exactly what it did, however you meant it...that is, make people think it's a pot-kettle-black thing. I don't know you all that well, so I won't attest to how much you have or have not argued with people in the past.
So are you saying that an insult is sometimes okay because it's an observation that seems apt? This is becoming awfully nitpicky. I do agree, however, that ignoring attacks is the best way to go.
I'm more saying, Meglet, that it may not be an insult, particularly if it is well-known that the target's skin is thick. However, I do agree that it's nitpicky, and an awfully gray area. I'm not condoning blasting away just because you know your victim won't care.
And I also agree with Anthony and Stormwing.
Due to people wanting specific responses is why I wrote this post.
How one deals with others reaction to what they post, and their reaction to the post should be totally allowed.
You can't post and get back exactly what you want.
I feel the best way to deal with post you disagree with is to continue to defend what you have stated in a well mannered way.
Now, if this is not your style, that is good to, but name calling, and such things does nothing for your argument, you just are trading trash, so to speak.
If you post, get mad at a post that disagrees with you and state, I'm not going to post anymore, you have that right too, but you've not defended your statements, wrong or right.
I also see statements made, but direct questions to that statement avoided completely unless the poster gets a response they like.
I always wonder why they posted?
If you don't want disagreement post something that can't be disagreed with. Even then, someone could find a way.
"I'm 5 feet 11 inches tall."
If you think about it, even that statement has lots of room for debate.
I don't feel that I should be punished for not responding in the exact way that you pictured. I think it's about time that people realized that if you put yourself out there, you're going to get many variations in response. That's just life.
I'd also like to point out that one of the best reasons for allowing people to say what they want and how they want to, even to the extent of name-calling and trash-talking, is that it shows what they're really made of. I'd rather know that someone's a complete ass by allowing them to show me rather than have them muzzled and not allowed to express who they really are. I also think that just outright hitting the ignore feature doesn't seem, at least to my way of thinking, the best way to show one's contempt for such people. If I see a post from someone I've come not to care for, I skip over it and pretend it doesn't exist because most of the time, engaging in argument with such people does nothing for your cause. They've already made up their minds not to listen to you, so why bother?
Exactly. Ignore the idiots if it helps you sleep at night.
Ok I agree with what most have said on here.
However, I've given this quite a bit of thought. This is not an age thing, or a blind thing, or anything like that.
What's happening online now, is that people by accident or on purpose are running into people who would disagree with them, where in real life they might not. So they at 60 may not have the ability to manage it as well as someone who is 16. For example, I know people on my Facebook who have lived basically monocultural, provincial, religious existences. I don't understand them, but I know them. Now, for the most part, in their daily lives, they choose to interact with like minds, meaning they live where that is the norm, they shop where that is the norm, etc. This is the case because people with a more firmly ensconced ideology have to self-coddle in a cocoon of that nature or they won't make it like the rest of us.
Now once they go online, you have a problem: it's a big world out there, and they are used to the echo chamber of hearing their own persuasion fed back to them.
These are usualy the ones who cry bully and foul when disagreed with, or claim their rights are being violated when rights are granted to perfect strangers, because they are used to their cocoon, and fail to realize that the internet is worldwide. Not their-world-wide, but the real actual world. It's tough for people with a strong ideology and few critical thinking skills to grasp.
I'm personally in favor of a more free state like what Wayne is talking about, rather than the ideas version of a welfare state to support the ideologically entitled classes.
I'm really curious here. How did I target Rachel again? I don't remember targeting anyone. In fact I said the word all, which, by definition is more than one person. Thus, not a targeted attack on anyone. Can someone clear that up for me?
You will target the person that feels targeted no matter how you write it.
Sometimes a person may feel targeted because of insecurities.
Anthony and others, here's the deal one last time:
I refuse to be patronized by kids.
Cody has shown me in multiple threads that if he disagrees with someone, he won't just agree to disagree, but he will belittle that person over and over again; I don't have time nor the energy for this behaviour.
I have actually tried to understand Cody; I have tried and tried. Perhaps this is how a lot of people over there deal with things; to attack others. Afterall, the way he's explained it to me in the past, it's quite the norm to attack someone (ie call them an idiot, moron, etc) if he doesn't like their posts or agree with their opinion.
Lastly, let me say that I'm a friendly person if you take the time to get to know me. And it's interesting, not many of you have; (not that I really care about that.) My friends will tell you that I like to see the good in everyone until they prove otherwise. As I said in my profile, I will defend myself to the ground if I need too.
However, I've come to realize that sometimes it's just better to ignore people on this site; do not give them the satisfaction of going over and over the same thing; I can only explain myself so many times.
OK I'm done and out for real.
Oh, and just one last point:
In case you haven't noticed, I have been known to agree with Cody in the past, and I dare say there'll prob be times in the future. It's simply the way he expresses himself.
Good day
But Cody is only one person and I'm talking about allowing anyone, yourself included, to say what they wish, and let others except, reject, or ignore it as they see fit.
I don't think you or Cody should be muzzled. If you don't like what he says, how he says it, or anything about his post, you can say so and be free to call him a loose lipped dummy, if that floats your boat.
If you wish to be seen as a nice person, and that you state your opinions in a nice fashion, write them as such.
If you want to jump Cody, jump him, nicely. Smiile.
You may want to gain a bit of age before going around referring to people you don't know as kids. You're only thirty four according to your profile. Not exactly the silver-haired granny you seem to be trying to portray. You're barely old enough to be my sister, let alone my wise old grandmother.
I'd also be interested in hearing your justification for your rampant hippocrisy. I'm sure it will be a fantastic display of verbal ballet skill. Please, intertain me oh great and wizened grandmother, and may I please have another cookie while you thrill us with stories of George Washington's birth or whatever tale of old you plan to regale us with?
You mean George the Kangaroo?
Thirty-four is far enough along the road of life to be able to look at, say, a twenty-one-year-old and declare, with a fair degree of conviction, "I've probably got life experience you don't". No, it's not any sort of grounds for being high and mighty, and it definitely isn't an automatic age = wisdom thing. I know a lot of people twice my age who may know more about the world than I do, but haven't really done much with it for one reason or another. However, the term "kid" can be used very lightly as well.
I'd like to point out that by responding as you have, Cody, you're made a really bad case for yourself. Say what you might about how Rachel may have dealt with you or others in the past, but you pretty much just explained part of it for her. We're talking gross hyperbole in order to make a statement without tons of merit look positively silly instead. We're talking about the very verbal ballet you claim to wish to see; this is a pot-calling-the-kettle-black moment if ever I saw one, and frankly I'm not sure who you're attempting to impress.
An honest question I have for you at this juncture is, quite simply, why do you even have to respond/ What do you get out of it? What do you hope to achieve? And whatever that is, would you say it's worth people potentially seeing you as childish, the very thing you seem to protest against?
The flaw in your question is that you assume I am looking for anything from this. I'm not.
The thing I seem to be able to grasp which many on here seem not to grasp is that I do not care about anything on these pages. This is entertainment for me. I pass the time here, nothing more than that.
The simple truth is that none of you or your opinions matter to me. I don't know you, and you not liking me or liking me makes no difference on my life. You, the population of the zone, will never have an impact on an important part of my life. Thus, I really can't see a reason not to toss a few barbs at people who seem to deserve it. If it makes me seem childish, I haven't really lost anything I value. The idea of a lady in australia thinking anything of me does not factor in to my life in the least.
So let me ask this. If we are all supposed to agree to adisagree and be done with it, why post an opinion at all? You cold assume others have differing opinions and agree to disagree with them without ever seeing the posts at all. It would save you a lot of time.
Ah, there you are then. You have unmasked yourself rather neatly. You don't care what happens as a result of what you say, you cannot be hurt or upset or otherwise inconvenienced, yet others are not so invulnerable, and it is not necessarily by choice. You are intelligent enough to both know and exploit this, and thus, it is people like you which would have made me want to side at least a little against the original poster in the first place. It is people like you, who don't give a damn and who will still make at least some sort of effort to hurt people for your own entertainment, that risk damaging the atmosphere and thus may need dealing with if their behavior is excessive. Usually, people who act this way in the real world (read, not sitting safely behind a computer) eventually break a law, upset someone enough to start an altercation or end up ostracized. I wonder why the zone is so different.
Oh, I've seen you post things you care about Cody, but I'm not trying to change your method of response, I say bring it on.
I waste my time posting, because 1. I want to learn 2. I want to express a thought and 3. I enjoy it.
I don't have to agree or even like someones reply, but the one thing I get is understanding, and I learn much. I've even been known to change some of my thinking.
You kids grow up and get a life.
Bob
I don't wanna. I'm a Toys Are Us Kid.
I have a life, it is posting on the Zone.
And get off my damn lawn! Damn kids, they have it too easy these days, spoiled disrespectful little brats! Why, in my day ...
We walked six miles through the ice and snow in our bare feet.
Shepherd Wolf. If you're going to claim that people of my ilk tend to break laws or be ostrisized, you're going to need to provide some evidence. Can you?
Yes, I have posted some things on here which I care deeply about, but that is caring about the subject, not about the people. You're agreement or disagreement with me on any given subject does not effect me. For example, we might argue about gay marriage. I care deeply about the subject, but I give less than a damn about your opinion on it.
The honest truth is that I find most of your opinions, and here I mean the vast majority of anyone on the zone, to be a waste of time at best. There are far too many people on here willing to capitulate. Anyone who is blithely willing to capitulate, I view as not being worth my time. If you aren't willing to argue your opinion, I don't see you as being rightful of having one. Now, feel free to begin hating me for that.
It's ironic how people say that cody attacks others. Why is it ironic? Well, all I've seen is attacks towards cody. Perhaps it kills people to know when other's bring up valid points. Oh and to be fare cody:
I am curious to see how age will change you.
I suppose you'll have to stick around for a long time. Unless Cody's aging faster then I know, well....
Honestly? I think age probably only changes us in that maybe we get tempered some, lose a few of the rough edges, and more to the point, figure out when to pick our battles.
But yes, the term hater and troll gets far too over-used on the Internet. Usually you see this from people with strong religious / femitheist convictions, people whose mind wouldn't change if a brick hit them upside the head. What they usually mean is they want the echo chamber effect: everyone agreeing with them and validating what they say, and telling them how persecuted they are or how everyone else but them is so privileged. See Elevatorgate in the atheist community, or the Chic FillA fiasco of 2012 where after denouncing the gays he cried behind his mama's skirt because not everybody told him how wonderful he was.
very good point, margorp, and so true.
I understand what leo is saying about age mellowing out some people, but I feel, with Cody and I, at least, it seems we've come into ourselves at a younger age than most do.
Okay then, let me explain myself a bit.
First, to illustrate what I meant about people breaking laws and the like, from my last post. One of the determinants of sociopathic behavior is, in essence, a disregard for, or disconnection from, social responsibility such as was outlined by the "I'm going to do this for my own amusement, and no opinion will stop me" mentality. This does not mean Cody is a sociopath, not at all, but just about all sociopaths exhibit variations on this behavior alongside other qualifying factors, and sociopaths are, by and large, either convicted criminals, criminals in hiding or, at the very very least, at high risk. Thus, the crux of what I'm saying is quite simple: being a free spirit is fine, and not being utterly shackled by other people's opinions is also fine, but when it crosses the line into "I'm going to do what I want, and your reactions do not matter...I'm doing this for my own amusement", the line between healthy and unhealthy behavior begins to blur.
I can disagree with a person, can dislike their method of getting their point across, while having basically no feeling for or against that person in general. Such is definitely the case here. I am not at all afraid to call a spade a spade, however, and when I see name-calling, blatant insults and the like being slung around for no good reason, I tend to tell it like it is. It's self-serving, it's borderline mean at times, and it's neither mature nor productive. Okay, so the world can be mean, and the world at large isn't always mature. Use that as justification, and I will quickly point out that the world is also full of people willing and perfectly able to exploit the less fortunate, and cruel to boot. There follows some awfully shaky logic concerning the defense of an indefensible position. In other words, cut your losses.
By your own admission at least, I am one of the people who at the very least is not immediately undeserving of your consideration, as I am both capable of and willing to back up an argument I make. I don't believe in sniping people, but I don't believe in letting attacks go unchallenged either.
I agree that name calling and such things aren't productive. I personally don't do it, nor do I jump on people's toes about their opinions.
Seems to me stating what you think can be done in an easy manner.
But, I still don't want post muzzled at all. If people want to use name calling and such behavior it is a reflection on them, not me.
Shepherd wolf, if you want to be taken seriously as being some defender of right, and being one to not allow name calling, you may want to look back at the post where you completely justified an insulting name being used. You can't have it both ways. Either you dislike name calling, or you think it is justified. Which is it?
I personally think we have a lot of boo hooing going on. If your feelings are hurt that badly, don't read the blasted posts.
If you would be so good as to show me in which post I ever justified name-calling, Cody, I'd be grateful to you. I can't remember ever doing so. The closest I can remember coming is something about someone being an attention-seeker, and that's kind of a gray area depending on how you look at things. You can either see it as calling a spade a spade, or you can see "attention-seeker" technically as a name, and thus accuse me of supporting name-calling. It's a hair-splitter, I should think, but in case it wasn't made clear, let me reiterate that I am not, in fact, in favour of name-calling in the general hurtful sense where nothing is achieved, but I am in favour of honesty. If someone says person A appears to be an attention-seeker, I'm probably not going to have a problem with that since their actions may render it true; however, when person A is instead labeled a "moron" or is otherwise looked down on without apparent cause, I take some issue with that.
All that having been said, I'll keep it on topic by saying simply this. Wayne, I see what you're saying, but it is the "I'm going to say what I want, and to hell with everyone else: mentality that worries me, when it's used to extremes. We've gone back and forth on this for too long though, I think. I'm not advocating a 1984-type regime, not even close. I'm suggesting that a person who really and truly abuses other users might be dealt with beyond said users just being told to ignore.
The last thing I'll say, Cody, is simply this. I have absolutely no problem with you as a person, or anyone else. I only take issue with the way certain things are said and done, and I'm more than happy to defend or explain myself if something appears unclear or hypocritical, or even to apologize if something I've done has put me in the wrong. None of us is above making a mistake. To that end, if I've stepped on your toes or given you the idea that I'm headhunting, I'm sorry. Much as I backed out of the other post because it was becoming circuitous and such, I think I'll do the same here. There's really nothing new that need be said by me.
That would be post 92 SW.
Ah yes. In post 92, I suggest that Rachel may have thought she was justified in calling you a "kid" and explain how this might be so. I don't see anywhere that implies my absolute agreement with her; in fact, even while I made the point about her age perhaps qualifying her to make certain judgments better than a younger person, I also immediately allowed for the other case, where an older person will not have the supposed wisdom expected. I definitely didn't jump on any bandwagons. I further asked what you get out of what you do (by which I mean the behavior I would call baiting or taunting), and you eloquently explained how little the opinions of most of us matter to you, which apparently justifies, to you at least, your careless-looking disregard for our feelings as a community.
In this post, I do not in fact see my stance or morals being undermined. I see, at worst, what might look like agreement with a questionable viewpoint (said questionable viewpoint being Rachel's). I am not in complete agreement with her, but was merely expressing a sort of devil's-advocate argument to perhaps explain if not excuse the behavior.
Okay, okay. Now, yes, we do need to draw the line somewhere. Attacking someone for the sake of attacking is wrong. However, as I stated, some people need that good swift kick in the ass. That is a sign that you care.
So you don't stand for it, but you're perfectly happy to find a way to justify it. that is the perfect example of a completely useless idea.
Cody, I'm afraid we're just not going to agree here. You, I fear, are one of those people who can and will find fault in anything that is not your own (and hell, perhaps even your own arguments and experiences for that matter, though I've yet to see it). I also feel you are the sort of person who uses absolutes to determine specific cases, which doesn't always work. If you can't at least have the decency to read what I say rather than what you want it to mean for the sake of your continued disagreement, then I have little more to say to you specifically on the subject.
And the drama continues...
I tell you what SW, I'll believe you, the moment you start actually backing up what you say with actions. So far you haven't done that, so I ignore what you say.
It reminds me of a bull fight. Wonder what these two would be like if we made them meet up in person somehow. Lol.
The same as I am here, the conversation would just progress faster.
SF seems to nice to box, so I suppose it remain fast conversation....